Curse

kungfumonkey2 · Jun 06, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Mesmers, Rangers and Necros have just not been used as effectively as the other classes yet. Warriors, elementalist and the like are just the flavor of the week. I personnaly think a good necro or mesmer is essential when I put together a HoH team. Nothing is more frustating than fighting a necro that raises minions all over the place. It hurts my teams quick targeting ability, and mesmers just plain own elementalist. The problem with these "support" (although I do not see them as this) characters is that their contribution to the team is not as obvious to the general populace as other classes, but their damage/disruption/protection is just as lethal as any class.

Rangers are very effective, I always take a trapper into Underworld or Fissure with me. I feel that many rangers over look traps, and do not realize how to use them.

Really quick reply to the comment above about mesmers not being good in low lvl PVP. A clan member of mine built a mesmer, and when he fought in the academy to go to post-searing (which is the lowest lvl PvP) he simply spammed empathy. The other team killed themselves. They cursed and sweared calling him a n00b, and using a n00b skill like empathy. Those of you starting a mesmer try this sometime, and see how well you do.

JL_99 · Jun 06, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

For anybody who has read all these posts and still thinks Rangers/Mesmers/Necros are useless...

Next time you're hacking away at a monster and notice that his life bar seems to be going down awefully fast, and is alternating between pink and green...thank your support players! Especially when you look around and notice that the rest of the aggro are limping, bleeding, and on fire!

Personally though, I'd prefer that the majority of people still keep disliking the support classes...it lets us Rangers be a lot more effective in PvP when we're virtually ignored, and can go about our business of pinning down flag runners, interrupting ressurects, poisoning warriors, laying traps, and sniping healers.

Sadye X · Jun 06, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Have you ever been in a pvp match where your monk (s) main issue isn't the warriors swinging weapons at them the whole time, but rather that the other team's mesmer keeps stealing all their energy ?

Or had an easier time ressing your fallen teammate because your team's necro made a well of blood out of the corpse the moment they fell ?

Or been on a team where within the first 30 seconds of the match each and every member of your team was poisoned via arrows, diseased via death magic etc ?

I could go on, but as it goes, calling the support classes useless is a bit off in my experience. Take two teams of nothing but warriors and monks and you'll likely have the most painfully long pvp match ever. Its the support classes that will seperate one team from the next, give your team's build / tactics the advantage ( or disadvantage ) over another's.

As a necro primary, depending on the specific build I use given the general make up of the team, there are many many occasions where I'll be one of the hardest members of my team to take down, and often be the last one standing when my group is defeated. There's a very, very good reason why the best teams I've gone up against will ignore the typical *kill all monks first* tactic, and slaughter the support classes asap by any means necessary.

~~ also just a quick mention in terms of pve ... someone commented that classes like necro etc are built for pvp, where wars etc are built for pvp ... just look at how all the farming threads for pve are typically made by players using a w/mo build, and not one of the *support* classes

Roc Rai · Nov 17, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

It seems that people gripe about classes for two reasons...

1: Skills got switched around or "nerfed" in an update thereby hindering the way a player used to play.

2: The class can't easily "pwn" another class unless it's set up specifically for that one class to "pwn".

Now before I start I will say that there are stereotypes for each class and what many view it capable of being. Those stereotypes in the RPG portion of the game can make it a pain to join up in a group. In PvP, it's somewhat the same, but in PvP you expected to specialize yourself moreso than RPG. That said...

It would seem that the original poster here has a problem moreso with #2 than #1 this time. While I understand everyone's core need to destroy another player, you can't rely on that as a team. Teams need support classes. Monks to heal, Mesmers to shut down, Rangers to pin/trap (as are some examples).

Just because your character can't totally own the rest of the other characters doesn't mean it sucks or needs a buff. Support is just as needed as damage dealing, and depending on your team structure whether PvP or RPG support characters have the greatest options to specialize to help the group.

It's not often you see Warriors doing anything but hacking and slashing, or an ele doing much other than their elemental damage. For both of those you can pretty much get a cookie cutter approach to defense. However with the support classes like Necros, Rangers, Monks and Mesmers that aren't set to damage deal it's a lot more of a guessing game. "Is that Necro Blood or Curses?" "Mesmer is Dom or Illusion?" "Monk is Healing, Prot or Smiting?" etc.

Each class adds a dimension to the gameplay. The support classes do it more so with their options to vary on attributes and specialization yet still do support. Also remember that you're just talking about primary professions. These classes you want buffed or deleted are vital to further adding dimensions as a second profession.

In the end, yes, Soul Reaping is typically only practical in PvP as a Death Nec in a MF group. The converse to that is Air magic is pale in comparison in the RPG portion to Fire. Every class has its bane for one circumstance or another. While I still have yet to find a practical use for Beast Mastery beyond slight amusement, I don't think it needs to be deleted or buffed.

Think outside of the damage dealing box.

Ian Savage · Nov 18, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Most people think mes/necro/rangers suck because they are not nearly as easy to play as war/ele/monks. In a way, it's the right thing to do. If you're in a pug, the odds of that mes/necro/ranger being any good are slim, while the odds are better if you pick a war/ele/monk. However, you'll regularly see guilds use a mesmer or necro (or ranger?) in their builds, since a well-played one can be very strong.

okay, i am officially adding this post to my hall of fame. this is exactly the truth, without a doubt.
I play a n/w and i can solo about any tank you throw at me. i can raise undead minions, transfer conditions and still cause good damage. anyone not liking the mes primary, obvously hasnt played one much. ive been working on a pvp mes build, and i can now consistently shut down every skill a monk has for 16 seconds at the cost of 15 energy. lastly, anyone not liking rangers, go play HoH. fight a ranger spike group, or even just a group with a good interrupt ranger and then when you are liying dead on your back because you just got owned by a "crappy" ranger. come back here and tell me. i bet i can get 10 people that agree with me because they have this thing that GW is based around. its a human trait, and no matter how much you hack, you cant get it. most people call it skill. i rant about this because necros and rangers are underestimated sooooo much, it makes me mad. when i beat thunderhead keep, my group had me, a n/w, 2 rangers and a regular death necro. now tell me they suck. they dont, so dont exclude rangers from your party.

Edit: DO NOT KILL SUPPORT CLASSES! IT WILL KILL GW ENTIRLY!

jibikao · Nov 18, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting

Make all classes worth having by itself. Before everyone jumps in and says all classes count all you have to do is look at the typical group make-ups

2-3 Monks
3-4 W/?? (usually W/Mo)
1-2 E/?? (depending on how many Monks and Warriors)
0-1 "support" class Ranger, Necro, Mesmer (only if their isnt a secondary skill in the group already).

People can say they matter all they want but most groups dont use these types of classes (at least them as primarys) and most are almost dead against them being added to the party or just leave outright. Im not asking for an "Uber leet" classes just these "sopport" classes given a little boost so that they can stand on their own in HoH (personally I just want to see a little variaty in group make-ups). I personally run a R/Me (IMO the funnest classes to use, but after waiting around for 30-40 minutes for a group and another 5 listening to everyone complain to the leader about inviting a Ranger into the group the fun is to few and far between). I shouldnt have to play a monk, warrior or Elementalist to enjoy the game or be an equel part.

People like you makes PvE STINK! Mark my word.

I used to do PvE a lot but after seeing all those "tankers, nukers, healers", I've given up. You guys need to do some PvP to truly see the power of the so-called SUPPORTING class.

In fact, I don't even know why Ranger/Necro/Mesmer are called Supporting class. Who is supporting who? Warriors tank so the Monks can heal on the back? Warriors tank so the Eles can stand back and cast AoE spells? It's a team game and EVERYBODY supports one another!!!!

Warrior tanking is probably one of the useless things in the game if you ask me. One Warrior is ALL YOU NEED on the team. The power of interruption, hexes and summons are way more important than Warrior standing there and tank.

jibikao · Nov 18, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threlyn

I find that on the whole, Necros, Mesmers and Rangers are more 'finesse' characters than brute characters. Each class, most definitely goes very very deep on play, but Eles, Monks, and Warriors tend to be MUCH more accessible to those that are looking for immediate success. If you're a Monk, equip any group of healing spells, watch red bars go up and down, and you'll be at least semi-effective. if you're an ele, equip whatever happens to do the most damage on paper, mush them together, and you have something that deals out respectable damage at some level. If you're a warrior, press a few skills buttons and hack away! I'm not saying these three are any less deep or complex as the finesse professions, but they're undeniably more accessible to the new player either in PvP or PvE. The others are just as successful, you just need to think a bit harder to find effective way to get a working character.

In a way, I agree with you. Warrior/Elementalist/Monk's abilities are pretty much THE SAME throughout PvE. To those "i don't want to think too much" people, nuker/healer/tank is really the only thing they CAN DO well.

Mesmer/Necro can be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more effective than TNH (tanker/nuker/healer) if they know in advance what kind monsters they are going to face. First timers probably can't see how good M/N/R are until they finish the game once.

Ranger is actually very versatile so Ranger shouldn't have any problem in any mission. I am not sure why people would pick W/Mo over Rangers... lol One Warrior is all you need, trust me.

Ian Savage · Nov 18, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibikao

In a way, I agree with you. Warrior/Elementalist/Monk's abilities are pretty much THE SAME throughout PvE. To those "i don't want to think too much" people, nuker/healer/tank is really the only thing they CAN DO well.

Mesmer/Necro can be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more effective than TNH (tanker/nuker/healer) if they know in advance what kind monsters they are going to face. First timers probably can't see how good M/N/R are until they finish the game once.

Ranger is actually very versatile so Ranger shouldn't have any problem in any mission. I am not sure why people would pick W/Mo over Rangers... lol One Warrior is all you need, trust me.

Major agreement. no one likes rangers, yet they are such a good class. i'll give you that beast mastery isnt that good, but given interrupting and status (burning, bleeding, poison, crippled...all preperations btw) mesmers kill casters almost right away (FEAR POWER BLOCK AND DIVERSION) and necros minions, wells, and life stealing SHOULD speak for themselves. but nooooo go ahead and play your shallow tank/nuker/healer and have fun with that. im not entirly bashing any one of those. you do need a tank for a well rounded group, we cant do jack without monks, and nukers give great AoE damage. its just that i find mesmers, necros and rangers so much more fun and powerful to play. you've got 4 character slots. so make a necro/mesmer/ranger today. play it to the ned of the game. use it in PvP. then take the fun you've had playing this and tell others. good classes should be played.

A User Name · Nov 18, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Ok. In my opinion everything useful. *cough* let's begin with pvp. Ever heard of necro spike (foc, shadow strike, gaze), ever heard of iway (2 perfect examples of builds that need necros) Let's go on to the dreaded ranger spike. You have to have rangers and a necro. Then well go to a balanced guild group usually involving 1 trapper, 1 mes/n (corpse control), and watver else. Then there is ranger trapper groups, and cant forget Minion factory groups which need a ranger and necros and mes. Oh yeah then there is the always useful fertile season for holding altar and sybomisis. Dont forget about eoe bomb which needs a ranger. enough pvp? On to pve with my first char i never had problems getting to ring of fire and beating game with a ranger, and a mes. Never once did i have a prob. I could just say ranger lfg, or mes lfg and i got an invite. So while yes in certain regions rangers, mes, and necros have a hard time, but it is fairly easy to get a pve group together that include these support chars. There's no need to cut them. That's my opnion lol.

RoF · Nov 18, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

If a group doesn't want you to play with them because you are a Ranger/Necro/Mesmer then they obviously have no idea what they're talking about. Why on earth would you want to play with these people anyway? There are PLENTY of people who would gladly have you in their group.

Hiryu · Nov 18, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

I actually think that there's a very valid reason for the W, Ele, Mo, groups to be so prevailent in the PvE game. The reason is because this group combination can be highly efficient at achieving the ultimate objective virtually all the battles in the PvE game (wiping out the enemy team while staying alive). I think that this is because of a very severe and fundamental design flaw in the game.

All the classes are well balanced in PvP. I feel that all of them are useful, and a team build can be constructed based around any 1 type of profession (eg: some well known ones would include Smite Ball -- monks, Ranger Spike -- rangers, IWAY -- Warriors, Fragility -- mesmers, FoC Spike -- necromancers, Lightning Spike -- elementalists) or a combination of them. Check out the build for Esoteric Warriors posted on www.guildwars.com for example. Balanced Build, 2nd place spot, 3 weeks. A nice variety of professions are featured. Each character can serve their purpose.

My opinion of PvE is far worse though. Simply because in some cases, the monsters are just pathetically stupid (so their stupid behaviour could be exploited to perform "overly"-efficient things -- ludicrously fast and easy Area of Effect farming prior to the November update, for example), or the monsters just plain "cheat". As a result, some of the important functions that the "support" characters play, such as effective shutdown (which can greatly contribute to the ultimate objective of wiping out the enemy team while staying alive), cannot be carried out efficiently.

An example of the "cheating" that I'm referring to is a bunch of the bosses in the game having 2, or maybe even more, copies of the same skill in their skill bar. For example, you might have your mesmer cast Diversion on a monk boss that just refuses to die (like Covetina the Matron), blocking out her Orison of Healing --- but then immediately afterwards, you see her cast another one! So you diversion that one. And she casts another one, before that stupid boss finally suffers from the increased cooldown. So much for Diversion, and the mesmer, actually being able to do it's job.

Another example might be the decreased utility of air elementalists in PvE. Few can deny the effectiveness of a successful lightning spike in PvP as they often almost instantly annihilate any target that's unfortunate enough to have been hit by it. For those who don't know, Lightning Spike works in PvP by capitalizing on the fact that soft enemy targets often have only about 500 HP. Lightning Orb at lvl 15 does 100 damage with 25% armor penetration, and Mind Shock at lvl 15 does 100 damage with 25% armor penetration as well (provided you have more energy than your target). On a target with 60 armor (which will take full damage from spells), Lightning Orb will do 125 damage and Mind Shock will do 125 and land about 1 second after Lightning Orb lands if you cast them in succession. So total damage from 1 air ele is 250. Now if you have 2 air eles timing their spike at the exact same time, 500 damage, just enough to kill their target, will be done in the span of about 1 second when the spells land. Pretty much an instant kill. The problem though, is that your targets in PvE often have far more than just 500 health and even enemies that are supposed to be soft targets (eg: enemy mesmers) often have quite a bit more than just 60 armor. The result is that the potential benefits that the air ele can provide to a PvE team is less than the potential benefits that the air ele can provide to a PvP team.

These PvE things that greatly reduce the overall effectiveness of many builds and even professions, to an extent, might explain why for the past long while a lot of us have only been able to see the mundane Warrior Tank, Ele Fire Nuker, and Monk combination everywhere.

Since the game (especially the skills) was built from the ground up for PvP, I think we'd be able to experience a lot better game if they changed specific parts of the current PvE game to be more like the PvP game to better work with the game's original design structure.

(But then again, who knows, maybe we will be able to. Arena.net did mention recently that it wanted to change the PvE game to be more like the PvP game. Perhaps changes like eliminating the "cheating" that the monsters are doing and tweaking the monsters' defensive/offensive ratings, which should accomodate for more diverse groups, are what Arena.net is referring to.)

Rico Carridan · Nov 18, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

This thread really confuses me. Are we actually all playing the same game here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting

2-3 Monks
3-4 W/?? (usually W/Mo)
1-2 E/?? (depending on how many Monks and Warriors)
0-1 "support" class Ranger, Necro, Mesmer (only if their isnt a secondary skill in the group already).

For PvE, yes, a lot of groups can look like this, but in PvP? You would bring a W/Mo into a PvP group, under any circumstances? Not a chance. And frankly, this setup is really ineffecient. Warriors don't do enough damage to justify having any more than 2 of them in a PvE group, unless they're running a pure offense build, in which case a ranger would do much better anyway. I've never found any PvE missions that need more than two monks either, for that matter. I would say the ideal PvE looks something like:

2 Warrior
2 Monks
1-2 Elementalist
1-2 Ranger
1-2 Necro or Mesmer depending on the mission (probably necro since PvE mesmers are SO hard to find.)

In PvP, the builds vary a lot more, but a 3-4 Warrior team without a necro is tandamount to suicide IMHO. I see a lot fewer ele's in PvP than PvE for that matter, most likely running a warden type build if its tombs.

[QUOTE=Kalaris]
Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you, Necros are at a harsh disadvantage in PvP because their primary Attribute, and most of one of their spell lines (death) cannot be reliably used in PvP but they still make it work.

And Rangers are at a disadvantage because Their pet and everything they have with it is almost as uselss as soul reaping.[/QUOTE=Kalaris]

Um... have you ever played PvP? Rangers are probably one of the strongest pvp classes there is right now. Sure, pets aren't used much in PvP, but that doesn't matter--the expertise, marksmanship and wilderness survival lines are awesome! Ranger is probably the only class in the game whose skill set is so complete that they really don't need a secondary at all! And necros... necros scare the bejesus out of me in pvp... every attack they have ignores armor, their curses are devastating, and they're the only class in the game that can increase the damage capacity of the entire party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiru Malkav

I've probably said this before, but having a group of rangers can sometimes be very bad, because the conditions don't stack. That means you only really need 1 ranger, mesmer or necromancer to deal out alot of conditions, but after that the effects of having more than one can dwindle off a bit. Like Spark said, with the main classes having multiples is obvious, but the support classes need to sit and talk with the group beforehand or risk becoming fairly useless.

Um... rangers do a lot more than just spam conditions. I would guess, in fact, that the average PvE ranger doesn't run more than poison as far as conditions go. Mesmers... mesmers don't use conditions at all! Necros are probably the class that could use conditions most if they chose to (or just as easily completely disregard them with absolutely no loss of ability). One of the most successful groups I ever ran with was 2 W, 1 Me, 1 N, 2 Ele (one being a warding earth ele), and 2 healer henchmen monks!

It's funny, whenever I pvp, the mediocre groups are all like "kill the monks first", but all the good guild groups are like "Kill the @#$%ing mesmer first!" or "Priorities are: necros, mesmers, interrupter rangers, monks, eles." Why? Because a good necro, mesmer, or interrupter can cripple your whole team before you know what hit you.

Rico

The Acolyte · Nov 18, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

totally opposed to this and fully disagree. I find that Necros, Mes, and Rangers are EXTREMELY valuable. The biggest problem I find is that there aren't enough players out there who actually know how to play them correctly. People are going to flame me for saying this, but I see the W/Mo build as almost the standard because it's so darn easy and effective to play (I know, I've played one). It makes sense Monks would be necessary...who doesn't need to be healed??

Anyway, I think anything more than two tanks is a waste as well. To be honest, when I form good groups with friends we bring 1 tank only. The rest are support (cleanup and maintance...damage from the ele, interrupts and counter spells from the Me, battery and tank assistance from the necro, pin down/poison/trap from the ranger, and heal/prot/smite from the monks). Of course, this only works when people stay in the group together, since most don't want to trust that one warrior will stay in the group the entire time...mostly because the "kiddies" didn't think ahead of time that they had to be somewhere...

Acolyte Devathi

Savio · Nov 18, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Why the heck was this thread which was started 5 months ago ressed? There isn't a real suggestion anyway other than do away with support classes. Closed.